Tatvavaadha philosophy

|| Hari Sarvothama Vayu Jivothama ||

abhramaM bhaN^garahitaM ajaDaM vimalaM sadA |
AnandatIrthaM atulaM bhaje tApatrayApaham.h ||

The always undeluded, unobstructed, free of sloth, and free of filth; that Ananda Tîirtha, the incomparable, I salute, who is the remover of all misery

Incarnations of Vayu devaru(from top, Hanumanji, Bheema ji and Sri Madvacharya)

Dear “Sri HARI” VAYU and Gurugalu devotees,

Namasthe!

Before knowing about the Dvaita philosophy (which is originally called as Tatvavaadha philosophy), I would like to tell you about the great Saint of the three worlds who is respected by Chandra,Indra,Rudra devathas and he is none other than “Acharya Madhva” . He is the great exponent of the Dvaita School of philosophy. Dvaita is employed to indicate this difference between God’s infinite perfection and the finiteness of everything else. His Vaishnavism is called Sad-Vaishnavism in order to distinguish it from the Sri-Vaishnavism of Ramanujacharya. According to his philosophy, the Supreme Being is Vishnu or Narayana.

This universe is real and is not Mithya or an illusion. The finite beings comprising the universe are subject to a system of gradation, beginning with the Goddess Laxmi, followed by other minor gods, seers, human beings and undivine beings. The rank of any soul in this scheme of gradation depends on the degree of its devotion to God. God is an embodiment of all virtues and excellences and ever remains untouched by any kind of blemish (Dosha). He has countless Roopas and forms.

Every follower of the Madhwa School should have a firm belief in the Pancha-bheda—five real and eternal distinctions. The distinction between one Jiva and another Jiva (jeeva-jeeva), between the Jiva and matter (jeeva-jada), between one piece of matter and another (jada-jada), between matter and spirit (Jada-Deva), between the Supreme Being and the individual soul (Deva-Jeeva).

Dhanyavadhagalu!

Thanks to Dvaita.org 

||HARI SARVOTHAMA VAYU JIOVTHAMA||

133 thoughts on “Tatvavaadha philosophy

  1. Hallo Mr.Venky Rao,

    Kudos for such a wonderfull blog and we hope you will embark us on to the new journey to teach the Dwaita Philosophy…We wish to see tons of information going fwd.

    Thanks to you,
    LakshmiNarayana Rao.
    HCL-Chennai.

  2. THANK YOU FOR THE VALUABLE INFORMATION VENKY
    YOU ARE DOING A GREAT KEEP IT GOING
    LET HARI VAYU GURU RAYA BLESS YOU WITH LOADS OF SUCCESS AND HAPPINESS

    SEEKING BLESSINGS FROM ALL VAISHNAVAS
    REGARDS
    ARUN

  3. really good work and easily accesible…..
    By this way the dwaita philosophy that is the must for us can be easily spread……. and do mail us with good teachings weekly

  4. Hi Venkatesh Rao,

    Greetings!

    I got the opportunity to visit your blog and got essence of philosophy of Dvaita. Very informative .. sure that everyone will get benefited this kind of posting.

    To my knowledge, God created all human beings are equal i.e. no caste, no sub-caste at least for the Hindu religion is concerned. I had been to few mutts and understand that people are not equally treated. This not happening in other temples. I fail to understand this with my small wisdom. When I read something good about Dvaita and thought i can share this with you.

    Keep posting !

    All the best!
    Krishnan Ramachandran

  5. THANK YOU FOR THE VALUABLE INFORMATION
    JANARDHANA REDDY
    YOU ARE DOING A GREAT KEEP IT GOING
    LET SREE GURU DHATHA BLESS YOU WITH LOADS OF SUCCESS AND HAPPINESS

  6. Hey venky:
    Awesome Blog..really good to learn stuff which are not really told abt.Anyways I was also looking for information about Mangalasutra, Kalungra and kumkuma..all these in realtion to both vedic philosophy and scientific philosophy..if you find any doeuments..please pass on…

    Thanx

  7. PLEASE ACCEPT MY HEARTY GREETINGS FOR U R WORK AT ORKUT.COM.SOON TRY 2 BRING A CATLAGUE OF MADHVA SAINTS BRINDHAVAN N LOCATIONS IN SOUTH INDIA.VERY SPECIALLY ONLY MOOLA BRINDHAVANAS.FOR NY HELP U CAN CONTACT BY MY EAMIL ADDRESS.MAY HARI VAYU GURUGULE BLESSES N U DIVINE DUTY.

  8. Dear Mr Venky,

    It was very nice to visit this website. Please continue your good work in sharing the information about Madhwcharaya & Madhwa to all.

    I was also wondering if you can please publish Shri Hari Vayustuthi in your website. I had learnt this through my uncle, but I have forgotten it. Would like to recite it everyday and hence looking for an online publication (either Kannada or English).

    Best Regards
    Srivathsa

  9. The philosophic aspect of Dwaita vedanta, particularly the epistemoloy, seems very impressive – much different from the philosophies expounded by the predecessor acharyas. But, delving too much into mythology, elaborate classification of dieties, too much emphasis on ritualistic compliances seems to have taken away the philosophical fervour of Dwaita Vedanta.

    There is a faint hint that Dwaita Vedanta might have been influenced by Islam: the strict dualism, difference between matter, live and the Lord, not to speak of staunch monotheism in favour of Vishnu. Acharya’s biography speaks of his knowledge of Persian language!

    • Another influence of Islam seems to be that of worshiping the graves. No other Hindu community worship graves. Only Madhwas. This should either be influence of Islam or erstwhile practices of Buddhism where the parinirvana state of Buddha was worshiped. But again parinirvana was depicted in the form of sleeping Buddha. Many of the Vishnu icons- Padnabha, Anantha Shayana etc do resemble Buddha parinirvana postures. There is a strong possibilities that many of these temples were actually Buddhist places of worship before they were absorbed into the Vaishnava cult. The absorption was slow and certain. It began with the conversion of Buddha himself to Vishnu avatara.

      • Its considered that Madhwa Saints do continue to live inside the brindhavana and bless all their devotees. The most perfect real example is Sri Raghavendra Swamiji. He continues to live inside his brindhavan and bless 10000 of devotees everyday. He cant be seen from the sinful human eyes,but definitely gives dharsan to satvik jeevas.

        Hence, dont ever say they are graves. Ask the devotees of Sri Raghavendra Swamiji.. they will teach you good lesson. With limited knowledge on Madhva saints dont give loose comment.

        Hare Srinivasaaa

  10. Dear Sir

    in a nutshell you have tried to sum up the essence of tenets of Dwaita tatwa Of Acharaya SrimanMadhwacharyaru.

    Great job done

  11. I am deep into Dvaita . But unfortunately I am not able to understand the Upanishads in detil. Please also buy TS Raghavendra’s books .This simple learned , humble and kind hearted soul ha sset a record in writing a number of books .I advise all my beloved brothers and sisters to read all his books.
    Dvaita is the only way to moksha ..

    We can serve the author by buying his books .Please also do your duty and donate

    • Namaskara Rajesh, thanks for visiting our blog.

      I have read plenty of books of Sri .T.S.Raghavendran. He has done extremely good job in spreading our philosophy in his simple translation which could be understood very easily by anyone…!! I too suggest all to buy his books to know the essence of Tatvavadha philosophy.

      Acharya Srimadacharya SanthumeJanma Janmani!

  12. madhva mathave mathavu sakala shruthi sammathavu
    madhvaraaya dhyana amrutha paana||

    each and everyone on this planet accepts DWAITHA sidhantha in one or OTHER way…but what to do MANDHAMATHIGALU they dont know that this is the only way to moksha.

    HARI SAVOTHAMA VAAYU JEEVOTHAMA

  13. I would like to get a detailed book on Tatvavadha with sanskrit verse and english explanation. Which book do you recomend. Please provide title and author name and where available in bangalore.
    thanks

  14. Hi Venkatesh Rao,
    Great Work. And Continue this sath Karma…

    @Krishnan Ramachandran,

    Thaara thamya is one of the Core the principles of Shri Madhwacharya – which means hierarchy.
    This can be seen in everything and everywhere.

    No two stones are same. Some are brick some pebbles and some diamonds.

    Similarly no two human are alike. One is good, the other is bad, and other is philanthropic.One intelligent, one greedy and the list goes on.

    Modern day science also agrees to this. Genetically no two humans can be alike.

    So there is a clear distinction among every organism in the world. Rather object in the world.

    This philosophy is emphatic in Madwa sidhantha. From this arises the concept of Karma, papam, punya,. We must read more books in this, listern to pravachana and must work to understand this (appearing to be complex) philosophy, which is made easier by many of our own gurus from Shri Madwa to Shri Raghavendra Guru.

    And more importantly this has nothing to do with discrimination.

    Please ignore if my understanding is incorrect.

  15. Hello Mr. Venkatesh Rao:

    I am basically not a very religious person but me and my family members are devotees of Sri Raghavendra Swami. Blogs like this one should make us aware of the teachings of the saints of yesteryears. Please keep updating new things. Let the enlightment start from you.

    thank you

  16. Great.
    I am happy to see our people help us know our philosophy in detail. Pray to God to give more blessings to us to do more such good things

  17. hari sarvottama vayu jeevotama

    what is basic difference between madhva gaudiya sampradya and tattvadi sampradaya ?

    plz tell the difference.

    prahlad

  18. @bhadravati..
    Definately not so, as Dwaita speaks of Pancha-Bheda(5 fold difference), Taratamya(Gradation of Souls). These are cardinal principles of Sanatana Dharma not Islam.
    The very fact that God and Individual Soul are distinctively unique is true of other Dharmas also. A learned “Pesudo-Secular” lady known as Romila Thapar(am sure many of you here are aware of her) had given a humongous and blasphemous explanation that Madhva was influenced by christianity!!!.. But Dr.B.N.K Sharma refuted her bogus-claims and sent her fitting reply. Islam, Christianity are Mleecha-Sampradayas , which do not believe in Re-birth or Moksha , do not place their thought on The Vedas, Mahabharata, Moola Ramayana , Puranas and Pancharatras. Hence saying Tatvavada is influnced by those religons is entirely incorrect.

  19. Very nice post on dualistic Madhwa sampradaya. I have read a lot on hinduism and am more interested in this philosphy than advaita philosphy at the moment. Thx and keep up this website!

  20. Hari Sarvottama Vayu Jeevottama

    It is very nice to read your explanation about Pancha Bheda. It gives a starting point and invokes lots of interest and devotion to learn/know more and more about our Acharya’s TatvaVada and Granthagalu.

    Hari Sarvottama Vayu Jeevottama

  21. Now i got a basic idea about Madhwa sampradaya and sad vishnava sampradaya.Simple words and good meaning embedded in the explanation.

    Keep posting more and more. All the best.

    Srinath Kashyap

  22. For those who want to understand Dvaita philosophy, please visit http://www.gyanasampat.in – My Guru Sri. T.S. Raghavendran has written lot of books in English on various topics. They are completely in line with Dvaita philosophy. In all, he has written 192 books so far – all in English.

    The latest book(s) – 108 Stars in Vedanta Part 1 and Part 2 is an excellent one where he has listed 108 Questions from various topics like Brahmasutras, Gita etc and answered them in detail.

    Thought I would share this information with other visitors to this blog.

    Note: Gyana Sampat is an non commercial website.

  23. SUDHA NAGARAJ CHITRADURGA
    NAMASTE!
    i AM VERY PROUD OF MADHWA PHILOSOPHY.M
    Y EYES WERE TRULY FILLED WITH TEARS AT THE SIMPLE AND EASY WAY OF EXPLANATION .MAY HARI, VAYU AND GURU BLESS YOU TO SPREAD OUR SIDHANTA EVERY WHERE!

    HARE SRINIVASA

  24. Tharthamya:
    Regarding no stones, no two pebbles etc being same. We all know that at the core they are all same, they differ only in characteristics.

    They are all atoms and at quantum level they all behavie alike. They differ because of the differences in their energy and vibration levels. This is exactly what Vedas speak. The apparent differences are only illusions. Are only a result of sensary limitations. If we had XRay eyes or if our eyes were sensitive enough to perceive most minutest levels of existence then we wil perceive only the quantum level which is uniform in nature and behaves erattically and randomly in everything and anything including human body.

    Thus advaita siddhanta is more in consonence with modern physics. And dwita only sees superflous differences and thus sees bheda.

    The objective of spiritual practices is to REMOVE BHEDA. And reach a state of equimanity. SUKHEY DUKHEY SAMAKRITVA LABHALABHOU JAYAJAYOU….

    so said the LORD.

    • namaskara,
      Lets consider human beings, one may be so spiritual/yogi/soft whereas the other person may be so arrogant/egoist/theif. According to their inner sense/soul they do their actions.Dvaita not only sees outside bhedha, please understand. When we have so much of differences in our actions/activities how can we say Lord Sri Harih and sinful souls like us are same and equal?

      Starting from Jagadguru Sri Madhvacharya to Mantralaya mahaprabhu Sri Raghavendra Swamigalu, all condemn mayavadha philosophy strongly. They have defeated all the other philosophy with their valid and strong points,which is Sathya.

      Below are few Advaita pandits who were defeated by Dvaita scholars,

      1. Sri Shobana Bhatta: He was a great Advaita Scholar but was defeated by Sri Madhvacharyaru with his Dvaita philosophy.Shobanna bhatta realised his mistake and took refuge under Jagadguru. Sri Madhva happily accepted him and renamed as Sri Padmanabha Tirtharu. Thanks for your comment, which made me to do smarane of this great saint since his holiness Aradhane falls tomorrow(23/11/2011)

      2. Sri Appaya Dhikshitar: A great advaita saint but was defeated by Ajaya Sri Vijayindra Tirtharu.

      3. Neelakanda Dhikshitar: Advaita Scholar but was defeated by Kalyyuga Kalpatharu Sri Raghavendra Swamin.

      Request to reply if you know any Madhva Saint who was defeated by any other school philosophers?

      • Trivikrama pandithacharya by Sri Ananda threetha. he became disciple of Madvacharya and narrated Sri Hari Vayu Stuti
        REgards
        Maruthi S

    • As per one’s Yogyata/Sadhana he/she does,will decide his/her nature of birth in next Janma.

      As Sri Purandara dasar said clearly, we have to take 84 lakhs of janma to get Manava janma. Lets not to waste that.

      ||Sathyam Jagath tatvato|| -the universe is real
      || Bhedo Jeevagannaha|| -five differences are real

      Sadhana sareera idhu nidayadhi kottadhu- This soul is meant for doing sadhana. Lets pray Aniladeva(Vayu deva) to bless all of us with Gyana/bhakthi/Vairagya.

  25. Sri Vayu avatara Jagadguru Sri Madhvacharyaru’s words cant be false,as he knows Lord better than any of us(only after Sri Lakshmi devi).

    || Sri Anandatirtha Gurubyo Namaha ||

  26. i an extreamly proud to be associated with dwyta phylosophy which is pragmatic in ints approach and reality of life, it enhances our inner strength to face any kind of situations in life
    hare shrinivasa
    padmanabha

  27. Can you suggest books in English? I am in the Brahma-Madhava-Gaudiya Sampradaya in USA, but I want to learn more about pure Madhavacharya teachings. Also, what is the position of Laxmi-Devi? Is She topmost devotee like Radharani, or the same as Vishnu?

    Also, which mantras did Madhavacharya suggest for lay people to chant for japa?

    Thank you, I love this blog!!!

    • Namaskara Sri Infinite(Sorry that i dont know your name),
      A great scholar of South India named Sri T.S.Raghavendran has written nearly 200 golden books related to Sri Madhva sastra.You can download the entire book details from here.
      Visit http://www.gyanasampat.in to know more. I have all his collection of books which are really guiding me to do Sadhane.Let me know if you have any queries on this.

      Sri Lakshmi devi comes in Second position, after Lord Sriman Narayana.See here for Taratamya(position of God)

      As per Sadachara Smruti Jagadguru Sri Madhvacharyaru asks us to chant Lord Sriman Narayana nama,who is told in Gayatri mantra. For one who follows Hari Sarvothama Vayu Jivothama Tatva will be blessed by Lord, and there is no doubt in that. If one think Hari as Sarvothama(Supreme), Hanumantha will come and bless and similarly if one think Vayu as Jivothama(Superior Guru among all) then Lord Sri Ram comes and bless. If one has Hari Sarvothama , but not Vayu Jivothama tatva then Lord will not bless. This is the true fact. Sri Gurubyo Namaha Harihi Om

  28. All this look so unscientific. If Hari and Vayu were the only two gods, then how come they did not appear in other cultures. If the world is Vasudeva Kutumbakam, how is it that Hari and Vayu gave the privilige of this message only to Madhwas.

    Advaitins have the concept of Nirguna Brahman. Brahman or Narayana is formless. Yat Bhavo Tad Bhavati. Each person will perceive the lord in different forms. This has been very clearly stated in Bhagavad Gita itself. In everything that is beautiful, magnificient, excellent, wonderful, etc etc we have to see the lord. Anything exhalting is an aspect of that lord alone. Then why do Madhwas confine his divine glory only to two Gods- Hari and Vayu. Is that not something like constraining the ocean or looking at the beautiful creation through a confined hole?

    All these ideas need rethinking.

    • Simple, if they did not appear to them its Lord ecche(desire) and also its Kaly pravesha. As per Lord’s desire everything happens. It is HIS wish to let us know the path for sadhane path.If Lord does not do anugraha to us we at any time would not know the right direction to attain Moksha. Consider me as an example:Though I was born in an orthodox family, I did not follow Sri Madhva sastra in my initial part of life. Lord Sri Hari and Vayu devaru did not do anugraha at that time. You would call me as Atheist if you would have seen me few years back. But see now, Lord Sri Hari Vayu and Gurugalu made me to create website to show people a good direction in their spiritual journey. I even cant believe whats happening within me. Na aham kartha Sri Hari kartha!!

      Lord Sri Hari and Vayu devaru did not give the privilige of this message only to Madhwas, but to all. Before the birth of Sri Shankaracharya each and every person had followed Hari Sarvothama Vayu Jivothama tatva. Madhva philosophy is not new to all. Its been alive after Lord’s sristi.When Veda/sastra went in wrong direction, with the anugraha of Lord Sriman Narayana,Jagadguru Sri Madhvacharya was born and condemned the ill philosophy which considered ourselves as God!

      Jagadguru Sri Madhva is not only an ordinary saint, he is none other than Sri Vayu bhagavan. One must see Bhaliktha sukta, rig veda etc to know the avatars of Vayu. Hariya mathavae Hanumana mathavu says Sri Purandaradasa.

      Lord Sri Hari is Supreme which has been proved already, he is the Lord of 14 worlds, he is filled with auspicious qualities. When Lakshmi devi cant know Lord’s full qualities how can others know the same?

      Chant the God’s name(Sri Rudra) who created TEN INDRIYAS, i.e, Senses,the eye,ear etc of Taijasa Forms. Further he ceated the akasa etc, five elements and sabda etc…From Adhyaya 3, sloka 17 of Sri Mahabharatha Tatparya Nirnaya by our guru Sri Madhvacharyaru

      Note: By above sloka it does not mean Sri Madhva is below Sri Rudra. One must understand that Sri Madhva comes in 3rd position of Taratamya whereas Sri Rudra comes in 5th position.

      Hence, all must pray the demi Gods(Sri Garudra,Shesha,Rudra,Indra,Chandra,Parvathi devi,Subramanya, Ganesha etc) as per Taratamya(Hierarchy), by keeping Lord Sri Hari as Supreme and Vayu as Chief Guru among all!!

      This is the path for Sadhane, all the other marga will not show the door of Moksha.

      • Dear Prabhu, can you kindly inform me that is there any bonafied asana (yogic positures) lines in Madhva sampradaya?

        I heard that Sri Madhvacarya inhis pancanga yoga system gave place to the asanas as the means for keeping body healthy.

        Any kind comment?
        Your servant,

        Laszlo Toth-Soma
        Hungary

    • @ Manjunath,

      Advaita says ‘Aham Brahmasmi’ that is “I am god” or “i can find god in myself” or “Unification of Soul with god on salvation” and rest of all permutations and combinations. Then why do you go to temple in search of god?
      Whole Advaita is based on Maya vaadha or “Illusion” which is very much unscientific and it cant be accepted. What i am seeing is TRUE, What i find difference in others is absolutely TRUE, and so as Acharya Madhwa’s dvaita.

      Dvaita doesn’t accept Nirguna Brahman. The supreme power Shri Narayana has shown his power and intensity in ten avataras. Shri Hari is not formless but he can attain different forms. Shri Hari is Saguna Brahman.

      Yad bhavo, tad bhavati – What we think, will become true, yes it has been said in Bhagadwadgeetha but wrongly interpreted by advaitins. If you think, world is unreal and god is of Nirguna Brahman then the REAL form of supreme lord Krishna, will also have to be seen as an illusion. Then Yad Bhaavam, Tad Bhavati will also an illusion right?

      Advaita doesn’t lead a person towards moksha and gnyana but results in everlasting illusion. Its Advaita phillosophy which needs rethinking.

      Shri Hari Sarvothama, vayu Jeevothama.

      • Advaitins did not create the concept of Aham Brahmasmi. The concept of in-dweller Lord is found in the most ancient Veda. Here is a link to Yajur Veda Mantra Pushpam. This is such a splendid piece of literature. So profound. So beautiful. Find that in-dweller. That is the fundamental truth. That is the fundamental message of Vedas. The message was not a creation of Advaitins.

        I request you to take the plain meaning of these verses, without putting interpretations of any of the Acharyas. Just plain reading gives such a profound message.

        This is the truth of Veda
        Ayatanam Veda…Ayatanavaan Bhavati.

      • What you are hinting is exactly right. Our intellectual conceptualization of Lord giving him forms, names, qualities…howsoever beautiful and profound they may be…they are illusory. Creation of human brain. Brain has a beginning and an end. It is nothing but a bundle of cells. The real SELF is THAT. THAT indweller. No words can describe his glory. Even sahasranaama is insufficient to describe that ocean of consciousness. All the scriptures, all the words, all the human expressions of that divine beauty are nothing but illusory. The truth should be felt and understood through experience. No intellectual debates, no vada vivada, no arguments, no panninis grammar, no amount of hair splitting, and LOGICAL arguments can establish the Truth of Lord. HIS presence should be present deep within. And that can happen only when we REALIZE who we are. A reflection of that lord. Rest of the arguments are puranas, punyakatheys etc which are just attempts by noble people to make people understand something profound. They are just like x, y and z in algebra. A person who does not know algebra, these are nothing but alphabets and letters. For a person who knows only purana and punya kathey KRISHNA is a legend. His leelas are nothing but means of entertainment. BUT ONLY A TRUTHFUL SEEKER AND YOGI CAN REALLY FEEL LORD DEEP WITHIN HIMSELF/HERSELF. When that person realizes how meaningless the lower level ego is, the lower Self is…that person exclaims…I AM NOTHING…I AM NOTHING BUT DUST…….WHAT IS REALLY THERE INSIDE (AHAM) IS BRAHMASMI…..just a minutest particle of that Narayana Parabrahman. There can be nothing other than HIM and HIM alone. People deluded by ego think they exist as separate entities.

        Ahamkaram Vimudathma Kartham iti Manyatey.

    • The advaiti’s explanation of brahman is confusing. Sometimes they say it is nirguna brahman and sometimes it is saguna brahman. Which is it? Are you folks even sure of what the brahman looks like?

      Of course it is Vasudeva kutumbam but if the advaitis fail to see the lord for what he is, then is it the fault of dwaitis?

      The lord says in Bhagavad Gita:

      Ye api anya devata bhaktaha, yejanthe shradanvidaha
      Te api maameva yajanti, avidhi purvakam

      Even those who worship other gods (like shiva etc.) they also worship me alone but not following the proper rules (avidhi purvakam).

      So, Narayana is the supreme lord and, this has come from the mouth of Lord himself. Let there be no confusion.

      Yes, at the basic levels all are atma but there is difference in the atmas – that is why we have punya atma and paapa atma. If there is no difference, then why should one lead a virtuous life?

      Incidentally, I am born in an advaiti family (Tamil Iyer family) and studied advaita and also dwaita and have concluded that advaita is pure and unadulterated nonsense. Advaita is the only maya in this context. You had mentioned that atomic level everything is same. At atomic level the human body and a piece of wood is carbon, hydrogen and oxygen. So, is the human body same as wood? Think about it.

      I am thankful to Sri Raghavendra Swamy, Sri Vijayeendra Tirthar, Sri Ragottama Tirthar, Sri Jay Tirthar, Sri Vyasa Rayar and other acharyas for divinely guiding me and my family the right path.

    • The gravitation pull is common to everyone. But why did it appear to Isaac Newton alone? Similarly, some eternal truths were evident to only some – in this case Sri Madhwacharyar. He has given the truth to everyone in all his kindness. Whether to accept it or not is up to the individual.

  29. The earth is so small when compared to the universe. One can easily understand that this unimaginably microscopic, where even some of the galaxies light yet to reach earth even after millions of light years (Kindly see NASA website).
    Hence the name, structure of the creator of the universe may not be within the reach of the ordinary human brains.
    But for Dwaitha siddhantha of Sri. Lord Madvacharya other examples, quotes, naraka, moksha etc., do not go with the present day scenario.
    As a person who needs to be humble, respect fellow beings, submissive to almighty the Chant ‘Hari Sarvotthama’ gives peace of mind and power to further acts.

  30. if u have any problem or any solutions,please write SRIRAMA

    THAT WILL GIVE IT IN UR LIFE LOT OF PEACE.THIS MY PERSONAL EXPERIENCE

  31. Venkatesh Rajendran,

    Your blog is very informative and your seve towards spreading dvaita is commendable.

    I have a specific request with you on posting articles on, one of the rare and greatest acharya’s in Madhwa lineage Shri Vijayendra tirtharu. You being from Tamilnadu, must be aware of his holiness.

    Shri Vijayendra tirtharu’s contribution towards dvaita is immense. Very few saints under Sanathana Dharma has done intense Ugra Narasimha pooja, among them our acharyaru stands atop. He was the one who established Kashi mutt. There are many konkani speaking madhwa families of South Canara, Goa, Kerala, Konkan areas are affiliated to Kashi mutt.

    His Holiness has done pratishtapana of Ugra Narasimha devaru in Moolky near Mangalore. It is believed that, the lord came into the acharya’s dream and told to establish a temple. Something really great and we should be proud about his holiness.

    Expecting a series of article from you on his holiness.

    Hari Sarvothama, Vayu Jeevothama

    • namaskara,
      Thanks. I will surely start up the series on great Ajaya Sri Vijayindra Tirtha Sripadangalavaru. Thanks for sharing nice information.

      Hare Srinivasaa

  32. Venkatesh,

    Thanks for replying to my post.
    In between saw your article on Shri Vyasarajaru, a good piece of info on his holiness. But please do a correction on the place of birth. His holiness was born in Bannur near Mysore. Chennapatna is famous for Brahmanya tirtharu(Abburu) and Aprameya swami(Krishna).

    Hari Om.

  33. Gravity did not appear to Newton. It neither appeared nor disappeared. It was always there and will be there and will be FELT BY EVERYONE. Not just Newton and other physicists.

    But Madhwas argue Hari-Vayu is available to MADHWAS only….nobody else…….Everybody else, including Adi Shankara are Rakshasas……!!!!!!.

    Every human being, every being in this world and in every world is HIS (HER) creation. HE (SHE) loves everybody and appears in a form that is most dearest to the seeker. Not just as HARI-VAYU.

    HARI is a concept. Hari represents all that is Noble. Virtuous. Good. Beauty. Dharma. While Madhwas may use the word HARI to describe that most profound beautiful fundamental aspect of creation, others use different expressions to describe the same concept. HARI is not a four armed person. That is only a representation of a concept.

    How can that glorious truth be confined to just one word HARI, when even sahasranamas are not sufficient to describe that profound reality?

    For a person whose awareness is not open to that concept, HARI is four armed vasudeva who should be idolized and worshiped and those who don’t see HARI that way should be condemned.

    But Hari is Paramey Vyoman. Unless a person’s awareness is open to that fundamental truth of reality She/He cannot know who is HARI.

    Richo akshare parame vyoman yasmin deva adhi vishve nisheduh, Yastanna veda kim richa karishyatiya it tad vidus ta ime samasate. (Rk Veda, 1.164.39)

    For a person whose awareness is not open to THAT parame vyoman present deep within and every where, what meaning can the verses of Vedas provide? Such a person only pays a lip service to HARI without understanding who HE (or SHE) is. Such people indulge in mindless arguments and carry on fanatical debates and hair splittings in name of Logic are religion.

    Read Bhagavad Gita Verse 3.42 that goes as follows:

    indriyani parany ahur
    indriyebhyah param manah
    manasas tu para buddhir
    yo buddheh paratas tu sah

    Translation

    The working senses are superior to dull matter; mind is higher than the senses; intelligence is still higher than the mind; and he [the soul] is even higher than the intelligence.

    HARI transcends LOGIC. He is beyond intellect. So how can any Acharya even attempt to describe HIS glory through intellectual arguments and debates?

    • Dear Manjunath,

      You aware of the fact that many renowned Advaita Scholars were defeated by Sri Madhvacharya in various debates across (then) India. One of the most famous among great Advaita Scholar Sri Trivikrama Pandithacharya, Chief teacher to Kerala Kind Jayasimha, challenged Madhvacharya and was defeated, further accepted Dwaita. He became one of the famous disciples of Sri Madhva.

      All of these famous and great Advaita scholars were certainly more knowledgeable on Advaita traditions than you and most of today’s Advaita Scholars. Such being the fact, kindly realize most of points that you are coming up have already been refuted squarely and thoroughly in the past. Why would such Advaita scholars accept Dwaita Philosophy i.e. the real truth as propagated by Sri Madhvacharya.

      Regards
      Vasishta

  34. Dear Sri Manjunath:

    There is some confusion in understanding my analogy that was given. Let me be more clearer the second time. I meant to say that, just as gravitational pull was available to everyone but it was only Newton who understood it and gave it as a principle to the world, similarly, Dwaita the universal truth was also there and is there. But Sri Madwacharyar understood it and gave it to the world. But, if some people choose not to take these principles, then so be it.

    I have never heard anyone claim exclusive rights to Hari or Vayu. This is first time I am hearing in your post. Dwaita only says that ‘Hari is Sarvottama and Vayu is Jeevottama’. There is no exclusivity in this.

    The ideas of Adwaitis being analogous to Raakshasas comes about because when the Adwaitis’ claim that I am Brahman, then it negates the supremacy of Sri Hari. This is considered an ‘apacharam’ – an act similar to the one by Hiranyakashipu who did not accept the supremacy of Sriman Narayana.

    The Dwaitis understand that Hari is supreme and has all great attributes – ‘Anantha Kalya Gunas’ (i.e., everlasting great attributes). Lord Krishna has given a flavour of the above in Vibuti Yogam in Chapter 10 of Bhavad Gita. Unfortunately, it is the Adwaitis who are confused about the nature of Brahman – is it ‘Nirguna Brahman’ or is it ‘Saguna Brahman’? Sometimes, they say this and sometimes they say that. The Dwaitis say it is ‘Anatha Kalyana Guna’ Brahman. So, please do not say that others call the supreme by a different name because it is the Adwaitis who are still confused about Him.

    You have quoted the Rig Veda 1.164.39 verse out of context. The verse only implies that the Lord is all pervading. Nowhere it says that the supreme is not that Sri Hari. Sri Madwacharyar only proved that the supreme Lord is Sri Hari. In fact, it is the Adwaitis who go on arguments with others trying to use logic because they give higher weightage to Gyana Yoga and this incomprehensible Nirguna Brahman. The Dwaita gives weightage to Bhakti Yoga. Dwaita gives weightage to Srimad Bhagwatam, the story of great devotees of Maha Vishnu like Prahlada (reborn as Sri Vyasa Rayar, Sri Raghavendra Swamy as mentioned by Sri Raghavendra Swamy himself), Dhruva (reborn as Sri Padarajar). So, in fact, it is Adwaitis who are actually guilty of the very things you accuse the Dwaitis of – i.e., endless argument with others using logic.

    I think you have not given a complete translation of Bhagavad Gita 3.42 and have left out the last words that shows the supremacy of Sri Hari. Let me give you the translation – Avyaktat – even greater than prakriti; Yaha – who; Prataha – greater than; Saha Tu – (That) i.e., Sri Mahavishnu only. That means Sri Krishna says that in the end, there is no one greater than Sri Hari. I think you should read Gita 3.43 to get complete idea – Hari is Sarvottama.

    You seem to be self contradicting in the next few lines with what you said earlier – when you said that Sri Hari is beyond logic etc. etc. You said earlier that He or She will appear in the form dearest to the seeker. Then you are saying in the later post that how can Sri Madwacharyar describe Sri Hari? Did it occur to you that by your own logic, Sri Madwacharyar could have visualized the supreme as Sri Hari???!!!

    Sri Madwacharyar has only proved the following concepts:

    Hari is Sarvottama; Vayu is Jivottama; the person praised in the Vedas is Sri Hari only; the Jagat is Sathyam and not some Maya; the bhedas are real; all Atmas are not the same —.

    Yes, we Dwaitis understand that the glory of Sri Hari cannot be described because he has ‘Anantha Kalyana Gunas’. So, how can you describe all the glory and greatness of the infinite? It is the Adwaitis who are confused and say sometimes that the Brahman is Nirugana Brahman and then sometimes they say it is Saguna Brahman. If it is Nirguna Brahman then also you cannot describe it because how can you describe something that has no attributes and if it is Saguna Brahman then you are in agreement with Dwaits. So either way, the Adwaitis lose out!!! Think about it. Incidentally, I had read that Sri Madwacharyar had even 1000 meanings for each of the Vishnu Sahasranama names – i.e., one million names – but unfortunately, this text is missing.

  35. Dwaitins just do not understand Advaita. Period. No use arguing on this.

    Nahi Nahi Rakshathi dukrin karane.

    It is true Advaita is confusing to those who do not have profound experience.

    Dwaitins who are bent upon idol worship and worship of forms can never experience the depths of ocean of consciousness which is inexplicable in human language.

    Dwaitins think it is confusing because they do not have the experience.

    Dwaitins are stuck in forms, howsoever ridiculous it may sound. Forms are creation of human imagination. A human mind that imagines things can imagine anything.

    But the real experience comes from Yoga Sadhana and meditation. Only a person who meditates can understand the Advaita truths. For others it is just confusion. Just because it is confusing does not mean it is untrue.

    Quantum physics or for that matter any physics is confusing to untrained people. So students who find physics hard may make fun of it or may even criticize it as being confusing. But that does not make physics less scientific or nonsensical. So if Dwaitins want to reject Advaita because it is confusing, then they should realize that the confusion is probably because of their intellectual limitation arising out of lack of proper sadhane.

    But by sticking on to an ideology merely because of their faith in Acharya and their guru parampare, they are losing most important element of spiritual experience.

    Advaitins do worship gurus but they stress upon personal first hand experience through Sadhane. They do not repeat mumbo jumbo of past gurus and bask in their past glory.

    For Dwaitins it is merely book knowledge. Logic and intellectual debates. But spirituality transcends human mind. It is beyond logic. But LOGIC is the hallmark of Dwaitins. They even use Panninis grammar to understand Veda.

    But then like the Richo Akshare verse suggests, Vedic knowledge is all about awareness and experience. It is not intellectual about debates or hair splitting logic or blind following of Gurus.

    o understand the Vedic truth, one must do Sadhane and understand the truth through personal experience. Not through basking in past gurus and indulging in umpteen superstitious rituals like madi, achara, vichara. Or contemplating on imaginary Vaikunta or reading umpteen puranas.

    Yoga Sadhane is paramount. We do not have tradition of Yoga or Meditation in Dwaita fold.

    • Hello Sri Manjunath:

      If the Dwaitis don’t understand Adwaita then so be it. As I mentioned earlier, I was born in a Tamil Iyer or Smartha family. Our family Mutt used to Shringeri Mutt. But I have understood Adwaita and Dwaita and have come to the conclusion that Adwaita is unadulterated nonsense. I follow Dwaita Acharyas. If I have misunderstood Adwaita and hence now following Dwaita, that is OK. I am comfortable with that decision.

      I have countered each of your points and you have been unable to defend them. Instead you are bringing newer and newer points to lay claim to Adwaita as superior logic. I will counter them as well.

      It is you who is coming to a Dwaita web site to prove that we are wrong. So who is being argumentative here?

      It is your own Acharya, Sri Adi Shankara who gave all this abstract Adwaita eventually said ‘Bhaja Govindam, Bhaja Govindam Moodamathe’ is it not. So then why are you criticizing later in your post that the Dwaitis say ‘Poojaya Raghavendra ….’ and go around the Brindavanams? You seem to be confused and making self contradictory statements. Your Acharya who claimed that I am same as the Brahman also say so many Stotrams like Ganesha Pancha Ratnam, Subramanya Bhujangam, Kanakadhara Stotram, Lalitha Panchakam, Soundaryalahiri, Shivananadalahiri, Lakshmi Narasimha Stotram etc. etc. Why did he do that? Have you asked your selves?

      Let me give examples from the life of your own Acharya:

      Did you know that one Abhinava Bhatta (or Vidya) was jealous of Sri Adi Shankara and put a black magic on him? Sri Adi Shankara then went to Tiruchendur (in Tamil Nadu) and composed Sri Subramanya Bhujangam and got himself rid of the black magic? (Some say that he physically did not go to Tiruchendur but meditated on Lord Subramanya of Tiruchendur and then composed Bhujangam but that is a minor point). If he himself was the Brahman then why was he affected by the black magic and why did he have to go to Lord Subramanya, can you explain?

      Did you know that your Acharya Sri Adi Shankara was kidnapped by a Kaapalika who wanted to do Nara Bhali or kill him? Did you know that it was at that time he composed Sri Lakshmi Narasimha Stotram? If he himself was Brahman then why did he need the help of Sri Lakshmi Narasimha to come and kill the Kaapalika and protect him? Have you asked that yourselves?

      You say that the Dwaitis indulge in logic and debates and that the Brahman can be only understood by meditation. If so, why did your Acharya Sri Adi Shankara indulge in debate with Mandana Mishra? Why did he not ask Mandana Mishra to meditate and understand the Brahman. The fact is that you are unable to defend your points. So you are resorting to slander – the Dwaitis are stupid and are unable to understand the real truth. And you give analogies like Particle Physics etc. etc. is not understood. But you don’t agree the fact that you have been unable to defend your points that have been countered and you are bringing up newer points.

      There are numerable examples in our Puranas where the folks like Ratnakara became Sage Valmiki by just repeating Rama Nama. There are examples of Dhruva and Prahlada who achieved by Bhakti Yoga by chanting the Lord’s name. All this Adwaita is just a mental gyration that leads one to nowhere. That is why it was your own Acharya who said “Bhaja Govindam —“. So, you should not look down upon Dwaitis who chant “Poojya Raghavendrya ..” They have accepted Sri Raghavendra Swamy as their perceptor and hence it becomes his responsibility to show them the truth.

      Let me give the example of Sri Bhodendra Tirtha who was a Shankaracharya of the Kanchipuram Mutt many centuries ago. He also said the same thing – it is Rama Nama Smarana alone in Kali Yuga that will relieve us of bondage. Now please don’t start any side arguments that we at Shringeri Mutt don’t recognize Kanchipuram Mutt etc. etc. Nama Smarane is simple especially in Kali Yuga when very few people have time to read and understand Vedas and Vedanta. Further more, for a layman like the guy selling milk or vegetable if you explain Jivatama and Paramatma, meditation, Atma Vichara etc. etc. he will not understand. But if you teach him Nama Smarane he will understand.

      Your example of Vyasaraja Mutt as an attack of Dwaita philosophy is also incorrect. It is the individual and not Dwaita per se is the problem. If you want along the same lines, can I say that the present Kanchipuram Shankaracharya went to jail on a murder charge so, Adwaita philosophy is incorrect? Do you know how absurd it will sound?

      If Yoga Sadana is so paramount then why did your Acharaya Sri Adi Shankara not stress it anywhere?

      Your claim that meditation is not given importance in Dwaita is also incorrect. Sri Raghavendra Swami, Sri Ragottama Swami, Sri Dhirendra Swami all attained Jiva Samadhi. What are they then doing inside the Brindavanam other than meditation?

      You also mentioned in an earlier post that we are all reflection of the Pramatma. I have heard this Bimba-Pratibimba concept nonsense also from Adwaitis. When I ask them by what Upaadi (or device) do we become this Pratibimba of the Bimba then they are unable to explain it.

      Good luck in your pursuit of truth which eventually you will find in Dwaita.

      • I don’t want to argue on who did what in the past. What happened and were. They are all puranas and ithihasas. Do they even bring an atom of evolution in our personal development? Absolutely no. Debating based on bookish knowledge is immaterial in the matters of spirituality. Unless one feels Hari deep within one should not even speak of him. How can we swear something is true when we have not seen it personally? And to feel him, touch him and experience him personally is possible in here, this life. Not in some remote future janma. Until we feel him, merely paying lip services to past debates is meaningless. We will be only deluding ourselves. To feel him, we should follow what he has said in his own words. Only through practice of Yoga and meditation can the mind be stilled. And only a still mind can really appreciate his beauty. Tell me if you have personally experienced Hari then I will respect that. But please do be honest.

      • Do you think getting dharsan of Sri Hari is that easy?

        Starts with Aproksha gyana which is never easy for ordinary and sinful human beings like us!

        The great yatirats of Madhva philosophy/great Haridasa like Purandaradasa/Vijayadasa have all got dharsan of Sri Hari. Do you think we are equal to this great saints to get dharsan of Sri Hari that easily? Sri Jaganatha Dasaru says we have to wait several janmas to have dharsan of him.It all comes through our Sadhane.

        Great Dhruva(Sripadarajaru) had to do Thapas in standing one leg for thousands of years to get dharsan of Lord. Its not that easy Mr.Manjunatha…

        Dont neglect Puranas or Itihasasa. Sri Madhva says Lord will be known only through Vedas. If you neglect it, then you will never ever know about Lord Sri Hari.

        If you dont believe on vedas/Puranas then you are not eligible to know DVAITA(Sathya)!!

  36. Mr. Manjunath H.S. Rao,

    >>>>Our intellectual conceptualization of Lord giving him forms, names, qualities…howsoever beautiful and profound they may be…they are illusory>>>>>

    In short, its NirguNa Brahman… As i explained earlier about 10 avataras of Lord Shri Hari which proves the concept of SaguNa brahman of acharya madhwa.

    Next, >>>I AM NOTHING…I AM NOTHING BUT DUST…….WHAT IS REALLY THERE INSIDE (AHAM) IS BRAHMASMI>>>

    Realization of what? Can you realize 1/0 within yourself? Can you realize beyond universe? Atlast we have a limit which defines the magnitude of a soul. If a saint or a highly acclaimed souls like Acharya madhwa, Raghavendra gurugaLu or let us take Acharya Shankara, can ONLY try for certain extent to know the magnitude of the lord. If we say, they have realized the infinity totally, then these acharyas will be equal to god which is against the nature rule. No one can ever try to get the dimensions of infinity, only infinity can define its dimension!!!!

    Hence realization of 1/0 will lead to error which is nothing but Advaita!!!!

    >>>>People deluded by ego think they exist as separate entities.<<<>>>But Madhwas argue Hari-Vayu is available to MADHWAS only….nobody else…….Everybody else, including Adi Shankara are Rakshasas……!!!!!!>>>>

    This shows your ignorance. Acharya madhwa NEVER told Hari sarvothama applies only to those who accept his dualism, its an universal truth. Heard of Manimantha? Search in scripts, you will find the answer.

    >>>>HARI is not a four armed person. That is only a representation of a concept.>>>>

    Definition of Representation: An artistic likeness or image.

    >>>>For a person whose awareness is not open to that concept, HARI is four armed vasudeva who should be idolized and worshiped and those who don’t see HARI that way should be condemned>>>>

    Now i am smelling Islam here…. Is advaita tends towards Islam by not accepting the attributes of the supreme?

    >>>>HARI transcends LOGIC. He is beyond intellect. So how can any Acharya even attempt to describe HIS glory through intellectual arguments and debates?>>>>

    You say Aham Brahmasmi and now you are contradicting that lord is beyond intellect and Logic. Advaita always equals to confusion.

    ||Hari Sarvothama , Vayu Jeevothama||

  37. Aham Brahmasmi is not an intellectual concept. It is first hand personal Transcendental Experience of sanyasis and yogis who practice meditation for long term. This experience has been confirmed not just by Hindus but also in several other cultures.

    It is the state of Sthitha Prajna.

    Yogastha kuru Karmani Sangam Tyaktva Dhananjaya

    The oneness with the universe or Advita or Unity consciousness is a state of consciousness described by Shankara is based on Upanishadic truth experienced personally by a seeker. It is not an intellectual concept to be established by rules of debate. Shankara has stressed upon personal experience of Brahman. He has not used panini’s grammar to prove his point. He has condemned bookish learning and intellectual debate.

    Nahi Nahi Rakshathi Dukrin Karane…

    Even today those who follow Shankara’s path can experience and see God FIRST HAND PERSONALLY. (Ramakrishna Paramahamsa/Vivekananda)

    God is not a vague concept that resides in a Vaikunta or Kailasa. GOD is this here reality present everywhere and in everything. Omniscient. Omnipresent. The fundamental truth of existence. Described variously as Paramatma, Paramapurusha, Maha Vishnu.

    Even Vishnu Sahasrnama describes only qualities of Vishnu. Except in certain points (probably at the end of each chapter or section) it mentions the names of Krishna, Narayana etc. But bulk of Sahasrnama is only a qualitative description of a fundamental nature of universe.

    One can sense Nirguna logic in Vishnu Sahasrnama much more than Saguna logic. At times it appears that Saguna verses are interpolations into a stream of verses that basically describe the fundamental nature of the construction of the universe. Such interpolations sound so much out of place in the free flow of the Sahasranama.

    The name Vishnu itself is derived from the word Vishwa or the Universe.

    The science in Vedas was misinterpreted by later day theologians to extend the power of dominant classes of the society through the instrumentality of religion.

    Anyways I am not here to prove my point based on what is said in puranas. The authenticity of puranas are merely based on beliefs. But it requires scientific bent of mind and personal first hand experience to understand the truth expressed in Vedas and Vishnu Sahasranama.

    There is more science in Vedas and Vishnu Sahasrnama than there is religion. Sadly in India people have just forgotten these aspects.

    And when somebody asks “realization of what?” there can be absolutely no answer in human language because that realization is realization of divinity itself. Beyond the expression of speech. It is experiential…..

    Hari Om

  38. @Manjunath
    My comments are based on your posts – copy pasted below.
    In the first one – I am referring to just the first line put by you.
    ———————————————————————————————-
    >>Dwaitins just do not understand Advaita. Period. No use arguing on this.
    ———————————————————————————————-
    I have heard of many Advaitins pandits refer the great grantha by Sri. Jayatirtha Swamiji named Nyayasudha to understand what Advaita is. This great grantha details out every philosophy and clearly establishes what is right. So do not say that Dwaitins do not understand Advaita.

    And in a different earlier post, you mention the following…
    ———————————————————————————————-
    Advaitins did not create the concept of Aham Brahmasmi. The concept of in-dweller Lord is found in the most ancient Veda. Here is a link to Yajur Veda Mantra Pushpam. This is such a splendid piece of literature. So profound. So beautiful. Find that in-dweller. That is the fundamental truth. That is the fundamental message of Vedas. The message was not a creation of Advaitins.
    I request you to take the plain meaning of these verses, without putting interpretations of any of the Acharyas. Just plain reading gives such a profound message.
    ———————————————————————————————-

    You are quoting the veda vakya Aham Brahmasmi – there is no doubt this is valid and true. Since it is veda vakya it is not a creation of anybody – forget advatins. I request you NOT to take the plain meaning – since if you do so there are other veda vakyas which would lose authority. While what you say is one of the meaning – you need to analyse to see if this is the right meaning as per the context. The same is the case with interpretations of nirguna and maya.

    I strongly disagree with your view of ignoring the interpretations of the Acharyas. Also, I disagree with your other post where you say that merely doing puja to Sri. Raghavendra swamiji etc wont give one any benefit.

    My main intention of this putting this comment – why can we not discuss the philosophy in a clean manner? Would it not benefit if we pick up a topic and put forth our views and the reasons thereof? The philosophies of dvaita, advaita and vishitadvaita vary and having disagreements is likely. Can we introspect the differences and see the consequences?

    Is it not logical that the theories be put forth, and objections, as applicable, be sorted out – without making statements that are not necessary or out of context.
    It pains to see comments which are not related to the topic of discussion – the ones on the Madhva saints is extremely painful – asking for gathering knowledge due to ignorance is one thing – but making a statement that all this practice is useless is completely a different thing.

    I request all involved to think through the comments and do not put in words spontaneously – lets strive to make use of this platform for a reasonable and meaningful debate/discussion to understand the philosophy correctly.

    I am not shy or afraid to say that I am a Dvaitin and completely agree with the dvaita philosophy out of reason. However, I shall give enough room for others to participate and put forth their views – let it all be put on a table and be investigated systematically. One has a right to disagree – but I feel it is not right to involve in negative comments on the other party as a result of disagreement. This is what i am calling for.

    -Rajesh Rao

  39. @Manjunath

    Whoa!!!.. If all elements are the same (According to you and your Advaitha Philosophy) , then why on earth did Mandaleev come out with a periodic table of different elements and their composition.
    2 Parts of Hydrogen and 1 Part of Oxygen can make Water which is the universal fact but according to Mr. Manjunath all atoms are the same them 1 part of carbon and 4 parts of Hydrogen should also give you Oxygen not Methane??? right ??? !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!……. some mambo-jumbo philosophy you quote!!!

  40. Sir,

    You are once again committing the same mistake Dwaitins have committed for ages.

    Using the language of logic and objective sciences to understand something which is very subjective and experiential. The current post modernists have thoroughly rejected the objective world view of science which says that everything can be understood through scientific experimentation, scientific calculations, maths.

    Periodic tables are good to understand the diversity in the outer world. No doubt there is diversity in the outer world. Our intellectual capability is limited, so we use tables and calculations to get an understanding of the manifest world.This approach to knowledge is that of a blind man groping around in a dark room. We are accustomed to that and we think that is the only way one can gain knowledge.

    But the external diversity exists because of the limitation of our senses.
    But beyond the manifest reality is the unmanifest reality. The substratum. Call it Hari, call it Brahman or just use the language of plain post modern physics and call it the Unified Field.

    Yathakasha Sthitho Nithyam Vayuhu Sarvathrago Mahan
    Thatha Sarvani Bhuthani Mathsanithupadharaya

    We cannot, we should not and it is absolutely inappropriate to use the intellectual arguments and debates to understand the mystical experiences of seers. We have to step into the shoes of the seers and Rishis to experience exactly what they experienced in order to understand what they spoke. Otherwise it would be mumbo jumbo. It would be confusing. How can we take the liberty of interpreting the words of mystics when we do not have even an iota of their experience?

    Bookish knowledge and interpretation of Vedas and Upanishads based on intellectual understanding is faulty approach.

    Shankaracharya explicitly condemned this. Once again I repeat:

    Nahi Nahi Rakshathi Dukrin Karane….

    To understand the Richo Akshara our awareness should be open to the underlying Parame Vyoman. Then we will understand and realize the truth behind Aham Brahmasmi. It is ridiculous to sit in an arm char, read the shasthras and write commentaries thereon. Whoever it might be.

    Upanishadic knowledge was gained in forests. Through Sadhane and Meditation. Even this day people who have undertaken right Sadhane swear that they have had similar experiences. I have personally seen such people. And I myself have felt the inner calmness and peace first hand through Yoga sadhane.

    Every chapter in BG is a science of Yoga. That is why I said, mere rituals and lip service will not serve any purpose. If we really admire Rayaru we should follow exactly his path. Not just do Abhisheka to his Brindavana. Treat him like any other scientist. Look at all the sadhane he did under his Guru. How many years of practice he undertook before gaining all the Siddhi powers? His powers can be clearly attributed to Siddhi powers of Yoga marga.

    Without doing all that, if we merely look into puranas and place this greatest Siddhi Scientist (Raghavendra Swamigalu) on pedestal and claim that he is this avatar and that avatar, and only worship his image we will be doing greatest injustice to his message. His intention was that everybody should experience God first hand. Even in his last speech he stressed upon overcoming the limitations of the Trigunas- Sattva, Rajas and Tamas. Overcoming these prakrithi doshas does not happen by miracle. It requires practice. Sadhane. Siddhi attainments. Without doing all these, no Madhwa howsoever faithful he may be to the tradition will reach the highest states of consciousness.

    Hari is there everywhere. It is for us to discard the illusion of MAYA and experience him first hand. That is the objective of human existence. (Even if you condemn Mayawads, Puranas themselves acknowledge MAYA as the second wife of Mahavishnu. Her power pervades entire creation).

    Shankaracharyas tradition prescribes practical steps to reach such highest levels of existence without indulging in mind boggling hair splitting theology.

  41. Yes it is easy. Call him with purest mind. With thoughts absolutely stilled with practice. Having established in Yoga through practice, just seek HIM, you will find HIM everywhere. (This is not my message. This is the message of Bhagavad Gita)

    What is necessary is a right technique. What is that technique? Certainly not reading puranas and mindless intellectual debates. Debating is not a way to reach HARI. Only Sadhane is. Only a true Guru can give the right technique.

    6 Shasthra galan odidarilla
    106 Purana Mugisidarilla

    And who is a true Guru? A person who has really experienced the higher reality first hand. But people who have really reached that state may be absolutely lacking in skills of intellectual debates. They speak with pure mysticism. Their words are full of riddles. Many a times confusing to lesser mortals.

    It is easy to debate with Sadhus and Sanths and put them down in debates. A true sage who spends most of his life in forests from childhood and has first hand experience of Shri Hari may not be a renowned Sanskrit panditha. It is easy for a sanskrit learned person to defeat even such highly evolved soul in debate by twisting and turning grammar to claim supremacy. But that will not take anyone anywhere.

    This seems to have happened to a large extent in spiritual history of India. Now with all the mess created, the words of true Mystics have been reduced to mumbo jumbo. Nowadays nobody even tries to understand them. But all are fanatically blindly loyal to rituals and traditions.

    Hari Om.

    • Dear Sri Manjunath:

      Sri Krishna after giving all the forms of Yoga says finally in Chaper 18 Shloka 666 that:

      Sarva Dharman Parityajya, Maam Ekam Sharanam Vrajaha:
      Aham Twah Sarva Paapyebyo Mokshayishyaami Maa Shucha:

      Give up all Dharamas (i.e., give up the Brahamana Dharma, Kshatriya Dharma etc. etc) and take refuge in MY FEET ALONE; I will relieve you of all sins (i.e., sins accumulated from all earlier births) and will ensure your Moksha, don’t worry. This is Bhakti Yoga, Sharanagati Tattuvam. This is what all of the Dwaita Acharyas have also stressed.

      This using of logic is the characteristic of Adwaitis because they give higher weightage to Gyana Yoga instead of Bhakti Yoga. Bhakti Yoga is the simplest and the most practical as well. If meditation is so important to Adwaitis then why didn’t your Acharyar Sri Adi Shankara not write any commentaries and how-to-do manuals?

      All the Dwaita Acharyas like Sri Raghavendra Tirthar, Sri Vijayeendra Tirthar, Sri Ragottama Tirthar etc. etc. have realised and seen the Hari in Pratyaksha. Their words are good enough for me. I don’t need Adwaita for my personal journey. I have understood that Adwaita Matham is Halahala Samam. It is you who come to Dwaita forums and say that we are stupid, illogical, have not realised truth etc. etc. Then when challenged you are unable to back-up your statements!!

      In Kali Yuga the level of mankind is really down. In fact, that is why Sri Veda Vyasa had to divide the Vedas into four parts because the intelligence of mankind in Kali Yuga cannot comprehend and understand the full Vedas. Coming back to the original point, so it is Nama Sankirtanam alone that we (i.e., most normal people) are capable of doing. So, the Acharyars like Sri Purandara Dasa, Sri Jagannatha Dasa, Sri Vijaya Dasa etc. have given us simple path of Nama Sankeerthanam. If even such a learned scholar, Vedic Pandit like Sri Jagannatha Dasa has accepted Sri Raghavendra Swamy then I, a normal human being, have no problem in accepting him as my Acharyar. It is the Punyams from earlier birth that I have been able to find this Acharyar.

      Sri Moola Rama Vijayate
      Sri Raghavendra Dayanidhe

    • manjunath,try your best in practising yoga but for sure would have down falls,kali wont leave you,she would drink your semen,the best everlasting happiness is surrender,nama sankirtan.dont you remember how narashima came when prahalada cried for help with two flowers in hand.

  42. Dear Sri Manjunath:

    This is the first time I am hearing from in my life that our Puranas and Itihasas don’t bring any an atom of personal development. Wow, I really don’t know what to say when I hear such pearls of wisdom!!!!!!!

    You are unable to defend even a single point and, now you are saying that one should not debate based on bookish knowledge. You said that unless one has seen or experienced Hari then one should not talk about him. Wow, what a logic? Let me give you an example – I presume that you like in the US. Have you personally seen Barack Obama in the White House? Then how can you say that he is the President of USA? Why don’t you question that he is a Maya created by CNN, FOX News, ABC News, CBS News, NBC News? Because you get your knowledge through a medium which in this case may be TV or internet.

    In a similar way, I have experienced Sri Raghavendra Swamy and Sri Vijayeendra Tirthar in my life. They in turn have said that it is Sri Hari who is supreme. Their word is good enough for me. It is very similar to you learn who your great grand parents, great great grand parents are from your parents even though you might not have actually seen your great grand parents or great great grand parents in your life. I trust this analogy will clear your mind.

    If you have read the Charitra of Sri Raghavendra Swamy or Sri Vijayeendra Tirthar or Sri Ragottama Tirthar you will see that they had done so many miracles but at the end they were the most humble – they said, “I did not do anything it is the Sri Hari or Sri Moola Ramachandra Murthy etc. etc. who did all this”. That is their greatness.

    You have to understand that there are three Pramanas – Pratyaksha (actual perception), anumana (reasoning), agama (scriptural authority). Sri Madwacharyar has proved using these logic that it is Sri Hari who is supreme. His words are good enough for me.

    As I have mentioned earlier, once you accept an Acharyar like Sri Raghavendrar or Ragottamar or Vijayeendrar, it becomes their responsibility and burden to take you across the shore. So, yes, one will realize the Sri Hari eventually in due course – i.e., when the Acharyar has molded you and removed all Malas (or dirt) from you.

  43. Shivprasad,

    I had enough of your mundane examples to explain spirituality and your personal attacks on me.

    Barack Obama has got nothing to do with Shasthras. I would have respected you if you had quoted from Upanishads or Gita or at least Purandara dasaru.

    We do not need pramanas to understand Hari. We need experience through practice. Please get this straight.

    And I am not here to debate and defend. That is typical Madhwa response. Take up the cudgels and start a fight. This is not a court of law to defend anything. Neither am I a great enlightened person to take the privilege of defending the religion. You have assumed the role of defender of religion yourself. On what authority? I do not know. Sorry to get personal. I am paying back in your own coin.

    All I want to say is that without experience one should not condemn any school of thought or verses, especially when those verses are embedded in Vedas. Just because Acharya said something does not mean that you yourself should act as an Acharya by quoting his words.

    Once I gain I repeat, without a tradition of proper spiritual practices and a sincere desire to experience Hari in this Janma, Madhwas will not go anywhere merely taking refuge in attainments of past gurus.

    Athatho Brahma Jignasa

    Without that Jignasa or even respect for that thought, mere debating and putting down others personally will not elevate anybody’s spirituality. Probably that will help them enjoy more of ABC and Barack Obama’s news.

    Hari Gurubhyo Namaha

    • Dear Sri Manjunath:

      In our Shastras we have something known as Upamanam – explain a difficult concept through simpler analogies. If you are unable to understand the Upamanam that is being used to defend Dwaita and counter your points then I am not responsible for that.

      If I had quoted from Shastras and from Purandara Dasa you would have said – Nahin Nahin Rakshati ——. So, either way you would have said something different because you like arguing. You are the one coming to Dwaita forums and instead of trying to learn the basis behind Dwaita, you are attacking Dwaita the philosophy, Dwaita Acharyas, Dwaita followers as being stupid etc. etc. I don’t go to Adwaita forums to say that they are stupid and deluded etc. etc. At any rate, since you wanted a quote from Sri Purandara Dasa, here it is – “Kannara Kandena, Kanchi Punya Koti Kari Raja Varadane —“. Now tell me under which tree did this Hari Dasa meditate in order to see Hari? So, the meditation being the only way to see and realise the Brahman is all nonsense. If meditation were so important to see and realise Sri Hari, our Acharyas would have stressed that.

      You are the one who is saying weird things that if one has not seen Sri Hari then one should not talk about it. So, I gave you the example of Barack Obama in White House, in the Oval Office. You were unable to counter the point.

      Let me ask you this – have you seen King Ashoka, King Chandragupta Maurya, Mahatma Gandhi? If you have not seen them, how can you talk about their greatness?

      If you come to a Dwaita forum and start attacking it, you have to be able to defend what you are saying. Otherwise, what you are saying will be considered as a joke. Sir, it is you who is initiating a debate and unable to defend your points and then you bring up newer points. You are very self contradictory in your statements. There has to be a consistency of thought.

      Thank you very much for your concern for the spiritual progress of we Madhwas. I am reminded of a saying in Tamil – seeing the sheep get wet in the rain, the jackal started to shed tears in pain!!!. So, you don’t need to be concerned about us and our spiritual welfare. As I have said earlier, I will go wherever the path of my Acharyas take me and, I am comfortable with that. Am very comfortable with saying the Stotrams composed by Madhwa Acharyas and going around the Brindavanams.

      Sri Moola Rama Vijayathe
      Sri Raghavendra Daya Nidhe

    • Its proved very well that Dvaita is the Ultimate Truth. Hence, please dont try to foolish us with points which are not at all relavant to sastras. But at the same time I would appreciate your knowledge.You can apply the same in learning Dvaita,you will find the amrutha.

      Hare Srinivasaa

  44. it is just a matter of time that manjunath gets enlightened thru his personal experience and he will appreciate that pancha beda taratamya is for real .

    hari sarvotthamma vayu jeevotthama

    • Yes, indeed the Adwaitis are completely confused and they try to confuse others as well. As Appanacharyar has said, “Adwaita Madham, Haalahala Samam” – Adwaita is as poisonous as Haalahala.

      When they cannot put across their point scientifically, they all invariably resort to this point – “well, we cannot convince you by logical points (or something like “Nahin Nahin Rakshati” as mentioned by our friend Manjunatha in this forum) but you will have to actually experience Adwaita – i.e., you and the Brahman is one and the same”. Then I retort – “well, if you have to experience Adwaita and it cannot be explained by logic, then on what basis do you negate our experience which is says that Dwaita is true? We can easily experience that the Jivatma and Paramatma are different, and that there is gradation of souls. How or on what basis do you wish away the collective experiences of all of as Maya? Am I dreaming that I am explaining Dwaita to you or are you dreaming that I am explaining Dwaita to you? So, whose dream state is it? Can you care to please explain?” When you challenge them they all run away or usually raise voice which itself is a proof that they have lost.

      Sri Moola Rama Vijayate, Sri Raghavendra Daya Nidhe
      Hari Sarvottama, Vayu Jeevottma
      Srimad Ananda Tirtha Namaha
      Sri Jaya Tirtha Namaha
      Sri Vyasaraya Tirtha Namaha
      Sri Vijayeendra Tirtha Namaha
      Sri Raghottama Tirtha Namaha
      Sri Raghavendra Tirtha Namaha

  45. i have one dought about madwacharya’s first avatara,which is hanuman,according to legend hanuman is son of vayu(pawana putra),but according to madwas he himself is vayu,how is this possible?

    • No more comments which insult or hurt dvaita philosophy is allowed. Interested and gifted can learn and get benefitted. Rest please stay away. I pray Lord Sri Madhvacharya antharkatha Sri Ramachandra Moorthy to bless all.

      Namo Guru Sri Vyasarajaaru!!

  46. can we say god in temple is same as priests of that temple?…..
    I saw in my personal experience many priests full of bad behavior(durguna,thamasa guna),they are nichaas…..
    can these priests be equal in any sense to god,who is kalyana gunapurna,who have no bad guna and paripurna….

  47. Now I will prove vishistaadvaita is alse wrong
    1)ACCORDING TO VEDA,parabhrama is paripurna,avanalli yava dosha illa,avanige yava dosha antikollalla,avanige yavudara avashyakate illa….
    adare vishistaadvaitadalli,parabhramana yavudo dosha dindha adara(parabharamhana) ondhamsha horage bantu adhe atma anta helthare,edu hege sadhya?
    so,vishistaadvaita is also wrong…

  48. Gurubhyunamaha,

    We should be great for God for bringing this jeeva in madvamata and try to understand and follow the great philosophy of Srimad Acharyaru. Thanks for refreshing once memories.

    Hare Srinivasa

  49. Comments are closed for this topic. Those who make comments here will be deleted by the Administrator. Thank you for your understanding and cooperation. hare Srinivasaa

    • Yes, there are lot of books in Tamil language. Please visit Chrompet Sri Raghavendra Swamy mutt or SMSO Sabha,Triplicane for getting tamil books.
      Hare Srinivasa

  50. I am a dvaitin and i am very much intrested in learning dvaita philosophy.I am searching for an learned dvaitin who can clarify my doubts, learned one’s, please provide your information (email id) so that i can contact you.

    • namaskara sir
      it resembles the pratistha of Sri Vyasarajaru. please let us know where the temple is location so that i can able to cross confirm

  51. Namaskar to all the Acharyas. 🙏
    I request anyone of you to explain me the meaning of Vaayu Puthra.
    If Vaayu(Mukya Praana Devaru) is himself Hanuman, then how can he be Vaayu Puthra (son of himself) ??
    Please clarify my doubt.
    PLEASE🙏
    Jai Sri Hari Vaayu Guru Raghavendra🙏
    Sri Krishnaarpanamasthu🙏

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